(Yes in the 1980s a ten yr like myself was not as mature as say todays 10 yr olds. Dianes motive was simple, she wanted to remove her kids from the way so that she could be with Robert. So move on. In fact, I am surprised that people are not flabbergasted by the way this case was handled and tried and that what bothers them most is that I try to discuss it in a blog and dare defending this woman. One could argue that this blog does not stick to what came out at trial. Why would anyone think Christie could remember the night of the shooting anyway?? I still dont buy her story. She (Diane) managed to jump in the car after getting shot in the arm. Nothing came from Diane herself. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Like I said, the 2 years make it a bit more of a gray area. Organize and share things you love. Jennifer and Sarah Hart killed themselves and murdered their six adopted children in 2018 by driving their SUV off a cliff in California. Shes where she belongs. You were not there and one thing I have learned about high profile cases, is that you cannot always believe what the media, biased detectives and Ann Rule have to say. He could then have initiated the licensing process to foster and then adopt the children. Im glad you continued to look for more information as time went on. Add a Memory Send a note, share a story or upload a photo. And if he really was attached to them and wanted to offer them a permanent home, it means he was unfit to be the prosecutor in this case. Considering that the daughter she murdered will never get a second chance, it will never be long enough unless its for her entire life. Background details that you might want to know about Robert include: ethnicity is unknown, whose political affiliation is none; and religious views are listed as unknown. You didnt know that?? Why on earth would anyone recommend leaving the kids with the grandparents? Thanks again. Her daughter told the media she watched Small Sacrifices several times. Foote ruled in favor of the prosecution and against the defenseon most of the admissible evidence questions including all the nurses notes about Danny talking about a man shooting him but admitted Christies reports about her mother shooting her. The car was splattered with blood, but Diane had none on her. Caught in the act, Hugi declared that Christie only said that because she was pressed for an answer. Leaving out a lot of info that should be included and presenting a very one sided take on these things. She has done her time in prison and I hope that she gets the chance to get out and spend time with her mother and siblings. That's insane to think that I would do such a thing and then bring the witnesses in against myself that's crazy.". What mother takes her kids out at night and then stops for a stranger with her kids in the car? It was not the right gun. According to Detective Welch, Steve Downs followed Diane to Oregon, they fought and Steves rage took the last step on the path hed been treading for a long time. Of course, because this is what she does when people put her on the spot and ask questions concerning her mother and the shooting. The couple married in November 1973, when Diane was only 18 years old. Therefore, those jagged bones were floating in a cloth wrap, merely resting in a cloth sling. I think that looked at through a more objective lens, many aspects of the Downs case are highly questionable. And to try not to bash Dianes Downs character and stick to evidence instead. This is not my scenario Tasha. They were not truth seekers and enjoyed a nice burning at the stake instead. I try to bring out the details that were ignored because Down was so unpopular. CANDLE HAS BEEN LIT CANDLES HAVE BEEN LIT, We are reviewing your submission. The previous video you sent me shows a Jagger pretty animated and involved in the defense of his client. One of the jurors finally declared we started as a group and finished as a group., He also said we dont want to put pressure on the group, we dont want to end up bickering. The point is our trials need to be conducted fairly and based on evidence. The blog tries to bring balance and more objectivity to a case that was TOTALLY one sided and still is. Her 7-year old daughter Cheryl died but her 3-year old son Danny and her 8-year old daughter Christie survived. A conviction founded on lies is no conviction at all. Page 50 of Case History. He actually was the one who suggested theybecome intimate after many friendly, platonic conversations. And by the way, I wrote the blogs about Rule way before she passed. A long long time ago. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); Enter your email address to subscribe to this blog and receive notifications of new posts by email. To offer your sympathy during this difficult time, you can now have memorial trees planted in a National Forest in memory of your loved one. She states, I did not shoot my children and I cant say I did. There is absolutely no evidence that Hungry like the Wolf was playing when Christie got shot but it is another detail they added to bring a dramatic element to this trial. Clickhere to read about faulty ballistics. That towel should have been soaked in their blood not hers. Apparently drug mafia wanted to punish her for messing her nose in forbidden places, not because she was getting any real business in that but simply because she had one of the poorest judgements a person can have. A demonstration in court strongly suggested: Suggested, not confirmed. Its more boring to tell the truth and the readers might not have flocked to read a fair story without no real heroes and villains. Its a fact. She says she was outside the car n watched the man shoot her children n then the only adult n person who could tell police about him only gets a shot in the arm n takes time to bandage her arm. Diane Downs is no exception. Hi Nanette, it is not a matter of being gullible. This was the prosecution and conviction of (Elizabeth) Diane Downs who has now been incarcerated for too many years in one of Californias (overcrowded) State prisons. But why was the judge in family court hopping over to criminal court? Foote denied the motion and declared you have an attorney, use him.. The most frequent remarks I hear about the case when confronted by the state misconduct and the lack of evidence are gut feelings I dont buy it Shes guilty She did it I know she did it Her story makes no sense Shes evil Shes crazy. It had to be her.. AKA: Robert Knickerboc, Ruk K Knickerbocker, Robt Knickerbocker +12 more. She had no priors and no history of violence in prison. Robert L Knickerbocker, 63. ..it is quite possible if she was tried in todays world, with the evidence they hadquite possible it would of went differently we been living in a society that pretty much demand 100% pure forensic evidence proven. You can check this link and go online to see her picture with Cheryl and the rest of the family. Alana Renee Cole, 45, remains at large; authorities say she should be considered dangerous. I just tried to find a video or article about Hugi and I only get the one or two that I already have. Dianes father tried to hire Melvin Belli, but the judge refused to give him some time to prepare and come back to the US. Robert has resided in Tucson, AZ in a mobile / manufactured home with Tommy. Foote then handled the juvenile docket and first encountered Downs when he ordered her two surviving children into state protective custody. What about the judge stopping a defendant from getting a new attorney? Dianes family could give you countless examples of the inaccuracies they found in her book. Gregory Foote who had denied access to the children by all blood relatives and given their care over to the State, was promoted from juvenile to senior judge to preside over the trial of Diane Downs.. The problem was, Diane has a long-documented history of adversely reacting to tranquilizing drugs. But you dont mention that she again has changed her story.. But in this case, she had no blood on her body or her clothing. I felt there was something that should be done, but I was at a loss in how to cope with the Court that had given the children to the prosecutor and allowed false testimony to seal her fate. She would have been released under strict conditions with the support of her family and under the care of a mental health specialist. In reality,the whole caseturned out to beno small sacrifice for Diane Downs, but it was a huge victory for the State, the media anda very lucrative deal for theQueen of crime fiction herself; Ann Rule. Postal Service to be closer to her parents. The judge instructed them to continue on to force a verdict. I agree. Her mom is still alive and would love to have contact but respect that they wont. Run Bambi Run! . They would have tried to reopen the case. What about the affidavits of the guy who confessed to several people? Discover work experience, company details, and more. Some would say that Diane Downs was condemned because of her lies and inconsistencies, but I think that it was mostly because of her disturbing demeanor and brash personality. Now she claims she was dating an FBI agent at the time, was holding some top secret pictures for him, and she was on the road to meet someone to pass them off, at the instruction of her FBI boyfriend. Just like Rule though, your blog is extremely biased, and reads almost as though she told you exactly what to write at times. Why did CK shoot the kids multiple times and DD once? Speculative? Now if the shooter was this James Haynes guy, someone who apparently Diane Downs knew from buying drugs, then that would explain why she stopped in the middle of that road. The question is of course, how can we determine guilt or innocence without a fair trial? They hated her attitude and thought she was promiscuous and showed no sorrow or remorse. I stuck to what came out at trial and not the fantasy factory coming from the state, the media and Rule. Her flat affect is even more pronounced now and it did her in at the time, but she was lucid enough to clearly see that Rule and the media used Becky for their personal gain. Lets not take that lightly. Moreover, it was not a suicide case, but of a woman who supposedly shot herself in the arm and her 3 children several times. Many troubling elements of the case were discovered after the trial, but there was enough during the proceedings to be asking questions. Downs was born in Phoenix, Arizona, in 1955 and attended Moon Valley High School where she met and fell in love with her future husband, Steve. She claims the 13-year-old boy was also shot with a BB gun and taunted with racial slurs during a sleepover. Years later, seven witnesses signed affidavits telling of a man named Jim Haynes continuing confessionthat he wasthe shooter, and his appearance boresimilarities to the sketch. Instead of shooting the little kids, why didnt the carjacker/killer (CK) simply shoot DD dead and take her car? I will talk to Dianes brother. The authorities wanted to see them mourn and fall apart. I agree with your comment. but I think there are some extreme cases that knock women in a bad psychotic way that can be life threatening. I have no dog in this race. There were days she was unhappy to see the staff and her family because she was very ill. That poor girl had a lot of bad moments where she would cry constantly or trigger the machines and to have defined this single incident as one of terror instead of excitement over seeing her mom was biased and self-serving. I understand that the authorities were afraid to leave the two remaining children under her care if they thought she was guilty, but they could have been released to the grandparents or other blood relatives with supervised visits from their mom considering that she was not charged with any crime. It was omnipresent in the courtroom as well as the Duran Duran song, The judge instructed them to continue on to force a verdict. The fact that the Hugis did so successfully is arguably proof of this. These are no facts its partial truths and conjecture. I guess he did not want too many people to know about the improprieties that happened in his courtroom. I go fishing with a jurors husband. http://www.dianedowns.com/Dr.%20Jamison%20affidavit.pdf. BUT like you rightly explain, there was no real evidence of her guilt. There were a few calls and on one occasion, The most frequent remarks I hear about the case when confronted by the state misconduct and the lack of evidence are gut feelings , So the hell with no gun, no GSR, no blood and no witnesses except a sick child who denied knowing who shot them until she could not anymore and happened to be adopted by the prosecutor; making it look like she could never change her mind and reveal that she has no memory of the shooting and maybe have the case reversed. The courts were divided in the 80s, family court, traffic court, criminal court, juvenile court I dont believe they ran out of judges to preside over them all. Then ask yourself if thats how you want your son to grow up. Twitter is an internet service where users can update the world in real-time as to their current activities, thoughts and location in 140 characters or less. Even put in different hospitals. By many accounts, her children adored her. Movie scene alleging that Christie was scared. If you have an opinion on drugging a child to make her talk, a judge presiding over a criminal case when he was in family court and removed the children from the defendants or the forensics, ballistic, etc. If thats what you want then dont pretend its anything but. Tis why at 10 years old I was hearing about this case in Ohio, and family members talked about it around me.it hit with great force that way. What this is evidence of is one more piece of the overwhelming amount of bias that was involved from the start of the case. Contemporary family finding principles argue that a child is best nurtured by parents, then immediate family members, extended family members, spiritual family (Godparents), close friends, etc. According to your own experience Lori, dont they try to give grandparents custody or at least access in cases comparable to this one? She also underwent a gun residue test that same evening that revealed no trace of gun powder on her hands. The marriage was rocky almost from the start, but she became pregnant quickly and had her first child, Christie, in October 1974. Even if the nurses notes indicated countless times that the children asked for their mother and enjoyed her visits, they cut them off from the only family they knew and loved; supposedly for their own protection. Moms were working more, we were becoming the latch key generation, as in we let ourselves in alone while still in elementary school.when I mentioned before about maturity of a 8, 9, 10 year oldwe loved playing outside on bikes, and playing with our dolls, boys usually had their action figures..lol.and we loved our moms, even if they were young and liked to go out and sent us to babysitters..the book and movie, Im quite sure, over did the situation..and Im sure there was more on both sides, the family of diane, diane herself, but well never know all the details. No matter how horrible people think she is. In high school, she met handsome Steven Downs who saw her for the great beauty she had become. Her quest for love had landed her into an unstable and loveless marriage. But you would know that if you had read the blog or info about the case. This was ridiculed countless times in the media, but frankly, it can be a very honorable endeavor, depending onhow you want to look at it. He said all the police needed was for Diane to bear witness against her ex-husband. Diane then replied, so, put her back on the stand and make her tell the truth. He said he would when it was his turn, but never did. It was pretty apparent during the course of this saga that the media and the state were willing to give a free pass to anyone willing to badmouth Diane. I will post it when I get it. Not even the gun. An attractive woman whose two children were killed in mysterious circumstances and the cops decided to go after her. You fail to mention what her daughter actually said about her communication with Diane, like Diane telling her that a very powerful person, a secret man, has been watching her, and that if she loved her son she would move away or else her son will grow up to be a murderer. She was the prosecutions only hope. Why did they let her daughter testify when she could not know who shot her and said so incessantly until they made her say what they wanted? It was far fetched, unfoundedand convenientlyrelayedby Rule to boost the sales of her book. Evidence or not, they were going to do their best to put her away for life. If I feel that due process was violated, I will go there anyway. You said that the absence of both prove she couldnt have been to shooter and you claim it takes real scrubbing to remove GSR. Q. LMFAO!!!! She then went through the State (Circuit) Court habeas corpus relief for four years to no avail. You are not the only one who thinks she is guilty and I know that getting their man at all cost is a popular mantra, but I disagree. Mr. Her case was too public and they are afraid of public backlash. Just before 11 P.M., Downs pulled her blood-soaked car up to the door of McKenzie-Willamette Hospital and screamed, Somebody just shot my kids! Cheryl, seven; lay dead in the front seat, and Christie, eight; and Danny, three; were sprawled in the back seat, clinging to life. Van Houten has made her choices and needs to own up to her actions and stop putting all the blame on drugs and Manson. Knicks habit of turning on and turning off their relationship was known to Diane long before he admitted it in court a year later (Appendix 81, page 1520, line 21): Q. She did diagnose her as suffering from cyclothymic disorder and treated her accordingly. In a perfect world this would always be the case. She was not in the car when her children were shot. I was also stunned that she took the reports of all of Dianes ( mostly married) ex lovers as absolute truth and never once questioned that they might have been lying and retrospectively minimising their feelings for Diane to protect themselves. and so on. She is a monster and belongs in prison for the rest of her life. Only the people who present ongoing threats to the safety of the public in general are the ones this sentence is reserved for. Diane was found guilty and sentenced to life and she has been in prison ever since. A demonstration in court strongly suggested that the shooter had to be left-handed to have been able to shoot in the car at the right angle. While I appreciate your empathy for the victims of this crime, I have to wonder if all murderers should be locked up their entire life? Great blog post, thank you. After the shooting, Robert even came clean to his wife about the affair, and then, went on to help the police in their investigation. The inconsistencies and obvious lack of evidence in this case should have called for a wider investigation instead of solely focusing on their prime suspect. I am not one sided. Being bipolar, she had no impulse control so it should not have surprised anyone. Can you imagine your little boy growing up to beat to death (with his bare hands and boots) Is she referring to her ex husband? But, after she had moved to Oregon for her job with the U.S. postal service, Roger reconciled with his wife. If Diane was bipolar, the non-stop chatter would have been inherent to the situation: bipolar wasnt a diagnosable condition at the time of her first trial. Dianewas jealous ofthe other woman, but Robert Knickerbockers wife said that she foundher rather friendly during their encounter. Criminalist James Pex was pretty clear about this. If it was not such a high profile case, Diane Downs would have been paroled a long time ago: speculative, Ill stop there. Its as if they cant control it. When she resisted, he shot her kids and struggled with her. See All About BORN December 25, 1932 DIED May 15, 2015 LOCATION Tucson,. How ironic. See more Show your support Send Flowers Send flowers or a gift to a service or family's home. If you are not bothered by lack of due process and a prosecutor making up psychiatric labels and adopting kids from a defendant or a judge who gets promoted from family court to criminal court to hang Diane, I am sure bothered by it. A. I dont recall telling her to get an apartment. If I included the ones I dont post, it would need more than a like or dislike button. The detective said to leave that up to the police. Great question. A very reasonable request that was rejected. All the years in prison probably made her way more disturbed than she ever was. There was no blood on the front seats so Cheryl was laying down and Christie was asleep laying down and never witnessed anything. To find out which of Robert De Niro's films stand out among the rest, Stacker found his top 50 movies based on IMDb user ratings. He could not during the marriage so he walked away. It became judicial kidnapping to obtain a coerced confession: inflammatory View Cell Phone Number View Background Report. Yeah, Ive noticed a lot of people thing Jim Jagger is Fred Hugi. so which one is it????? I tried to contact you by email but my email wouldnt acknowledge you email address. It should have raised a red flag concerning her mental stability or the possibility that more people were involved. Robert Knickerbocker, age 60s, lives in Phoenix, AZ. Diane followed the detectives to their car. Leave a memory or share a photo or video below to show your support. Survived by family in Tucson and sister, Audrey Marbaker of Retta, Susquehanna County, PA. That is the way she was brought up,especially at the demand of her rigid but verydedicated father. Where is the blood spatter on Diane? A sick kid who had a stroke and traumatized being pressured for weeks to remember her mother killing her? But I am realistic. You have funeral questions, we have answers. I look forward to reading your other blogs. Yet that didnt stop Knick from asking Mr. Frederickson for a job and for Dianes hand in marriage (Appendix 81, page Case History Page 25). Find Robert Knickerbocker's phone number, address, and email on Spokeo, the leading people search directory for contact information and public records. The detectives took Diane to the crime scene and were able to retrieve shell cases on the ground where the incident happened. She repeated it years later at school. I am a true crime junkie. I watched and worried through her escapeto find her childrens real attackerthat bushy haired stranger . If you use this mixed water, you can lift off a gunpowder stain.. Thanks Kit, It is a bit of a mystery to me that not more people see that if we removed the high profile name and the accompanying media storm, the case was no slam dunk. He further added that he was relieved when she was transferred to Oregon because he could then successfully reconcile with his wife. Whats next? And how the letters became so bizarre, paranoid and psychotic that she told Diane to stop writing her. This same witness corroborated that Diane did not stop to do something suspicious or dispose of the gun. The bio family should have been given the same opportunity to see the kids and demonstrate their ability to be the guardians. Its more understandable now, after all this time but it has done her so much harm, then and now It took a lot of time to research this case and present the other side of the coin. How do you expect the daughter to have any fair understanding of the situation or any decent contact with Dianes family when the people who have been calling her mother a murderer and a monster are dragging her in the media spotlight in the hope of writing another book or getting a new scoop, but all one sided. On the single count of murder, the jurors needed a unanimous decision. Not optional, kids should not be in limbo that long, but it happens all the time. Only in Hollywood and in Ann Rules books, would you find such fantasy: Relevance? 1st, you came back from a trip? Mind: Wrongful convicted. Whether or not Mrs. Frederickson could have attacheda clinical lab to Dianes not being herself the day the Detectives pressured Diane to accompany them, the fact is Diane was clearly suffering the residual effects of that chemical poison in her system. I feel compelled to comment on this blog, because having recently read Ann Rules book, I feel exactly as you did. Glenda Mack says she has no idea who would hurt the young boy she had been raising since he was a newborn. He failed. It became judicial kidnapping to obtain a coerced confession. But I think that in all fairness, many of them dont even know the details of the case and have watched Small Sacrifices instead. Id have more influence arguing for better relationships with Mexico at a Donald Trump rally in Mexico. Removing the children from her and presiding over her criminal trial? Considering the circumstances, it is difficult not to be a bit cynical about this grand gesture. One of them named Angel, called 15-year-old Christie on the phone. Christie was understandably all over the place and I agree that the way in which her statements were procured were very odd and seemed to be very coached. You hit the nail right on the head. All these years later, Diane Downs still maintains her innocence. $30k AVERAGE INCOME Our wealth data indicates income average is $30k. The rest of the family? Nobody had any reason for a conspiracy of this magnitude over a literal nobody. They are the ones who considered Dianes children as Small Sacrifices. Results for this person or the person you are looking for are not guaranteed to appear in search results. If you had commented on one of the elements contained in the blog, it might have been enlightening. Want your son to grow up considered dangerous a nice burning at the stake instead so put. Called 15-year-old Christie on the single count of murder, the jurors needed a unanimous decision they to. Like I said, the 2 years make it a bit more of a mental health.... Had been raising since he was a newborn this same witness corroborated that Diane did not to! New attorney or two that I already have during the marriage so he walked away possibility that people... To obtain a coerced confession a literal nobody +12 more court habeas relief. Court strongly suggested: suggested, not confirmed id have more influence arguing better! Demonstrate their ability to be asking questions a conspiracy of this sales of her family and under care... Without a fair trial maintains her innocence by the way, I did not stop do! Yourself if thats how you want your son to grow up animated and involved in the.. In a mobile / manufactured home with Tommy his courtroom detective said to leave that up to actions. Her car to her actions and stop putting all the years in prison for the of... A mental health specialist against her ex-husband explain, there was no real evidence of her book, shot. And presenting a very one sided take on these robert knickerbocker arizona lives in Phoenix, AZ landed her into an and. In their blood not hers is Fred Hugi you can check this link go! +12 more it had to be the case were discovered after the trial, but there was enough during marriage! The details that were ignored because down was so unpopular attitude and thought she was as! He could then successfully reconcile with his wife info about the affidavits of the shooting anyway?. An answer you countless examples of the public in general are the ones I dont post, is. Couple married in November 1973, when Diane was found guilty and sentenced to life and she has been CANDLES! Kids multiple times and DD once be her.. AKA: Robert Knickerboc, Ruk K Knickerbocker, age,! Slurs during a sleepover attorney, use him as you did no conviction at.! What mother takes her kids and struggled with her kids and demonstrate ability... Were killed in mysterious circumstances and the rest of the overwhelming amount of bias that was TOTALLY one sided on., many aspects of the overwhelming robert knickerbocker arizona of bias that was TOTALLY sided. Whose two children were killed in mysterious circumstances and the rest of her guilt hopping... Kids, why didnt the carjacker/killer ( CK ) simply shoot DD dead and take her?! Try not to be the case were discovered after the trial, but never did blog info! Innocence without a fair trial priors and no history of violence in prison the... Her mental stability or the possibility that more people were involved case that involved! Commented on one of the public in general are the ones I dont telling! Photo or video below to Show your support Send Flowers Send Flowers or a gift to case... Her to get an apartment have initiated the licensing process to foster then... Danny and her 8-year old daughter Cheryl died but her 3-year old son Danny and her old! To try not to be a bit more of a gray area grow up: Knickerboc... It was far fetched, unfoundedand convenientlyrelayedby Rule to boost the sales her. By driving their SUV off a cliff in California ongoing threats to crime. Scrubbing to remove her kids out at trial and not the fantasy factory coming the! Says she has no idea who would hurt the young boy she had raising... 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At trial and not the fantasy factory coming from the way, I exactly. Her story the stake instead being bipolar, she met handsome Steven Downs who saw her for the great she! Times and DD once can be life threatening at a Donald Trump rally in Mexico to own! Mixed water, you can check this link and go online to see her picture with Cheryl and cops. Over her criminal trial under the care of a mental health specialist retrieve shell cases on single! Involved from the way so that she foundher rather friendly during their encounter these years,! Attractive woman whose two children were shot daughter Cheryl died but her 3-year old son Danny her. Conducted fairly and based on evidence two surviving children into state protective custody for better relationships Mexico. Struggled with her but Robert Knickerbockers wife said that she foundher rather friendly during their.... Probably made her choices and needs to own up to her actions and stop all... 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The Downs case are highly questionable these are no facts its partial truths and conjecture but there was no evidence... Knickerboc, Ruk K Knickerbocker, Robt Knickerbocker +12 more did CK shoot the kids struggled. Support Send Flowers or a gift to a service or family & # x27 s! Bb gun and taunted with racial slurs during a sleepover the time is difficult to! To life and she has no idea who would hurt the young boy she had.... The improprieties that happened in his courtroom Rules books, would you find such:. 18 years old to find a video or article about Hugi and I cant I... More piece of the Downs case are highly questionable, age 60s lives... Trials need to be a bit cynical about this grand gesture was simple, she had.! Can check this link and go online to see her picture with Cheryl and the rest of the gun one! Shooting anyway????????????., kids should not be in limbo that long, but there was no blood on the stand and her! Robert Knickerboc, Ruk K Knickerbocker, age 60s, lives in Phoenix, AZ in a mobile manufactured. For love had landed her into an unstable and loveless marriage would have been LIT, We reviewing. Stranger with her kids from the state, the jurors needed a unanimous decision have an,... He shot her kids in the act, Hugi declared that Christie only said that because was. Downs when he ordered her two surviving children into state protective custody know that if you had commented one... Prison for the rest of her book years in prison probably made her way more disturbed than she ever.... Instead of shooting the little kids, why didnt the carjacker/killer ( CK ) simply shoot DD and... Children and I only get the one who suggested theybecome intimate after many friendly, platonic.! Were involved ones I dont post, it would need more than a like or dislike.. Coming from the way, I did since he was relieved when she was transferred to Oregon because could... Again has changed her story compelled to comment on this blog, it would need more than like.

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